Unpaid Bills Land Some Debtors Behind Bars : NPR

So, Robin Sanders has enough money to fill her car up with gas and drive around, she's got enough money to cough up $500 for bail, but she says she can't pay her bills?

It took her father to raise the $500 bail money, and she spent 4 days in jail.

These deadbeats play a dangerous game. They purposely make themselves difficult or impossible to reach, thinking that the creditors are going to give up eventually and leave them be with the bill unpaid.

How do you now she's a deadbeat? A lot of people have to drive back and forth to work and end up putting most of their incomes in the tank of their car so they can at least keep their job and try to stay afloat.

However, this means that court notices can't get to them either, and they miss important things like summons notices from courts, which is a contempt of court violation just as surely as ignoring a jury duty summons.

Not all people can afford to take ff work when they are living paycheck to paycheck to keep some food on the table and a roof over their head. Have you ever served on a jury? The pay sucks!

This deadbeat didn't rack up any $730 in medical bills and not know that she'd seen a doctor. She was going to stiff the doctor, even though she obviously had the money to pay for services rendered. That's the sort of thing which makes judges very angry. Angry judges tend to issue bench warrants, which is what got Ms. Deadbeat arrested.

You don't know the whole situation. some people that get a bill for $80 ens up becoming $4000 all because they want the money now when people on minimum wage salaries do not have the $80 to fork over right away. Then in a few weeks or mths, they sell the bill to debt collectors that raise the rates even higher on the person that makes it impossible for them to even pay the bill.

It's known as the credit/debt trap for the American consumers. Keep them deep in debt and make sure they are stuck owing some company for life their incomes.

I'm filing bankruptcy and I am not ashamed of it either. I have had a lot of medical bills and expenses that are out of my reach, and my medical does not cover all the expenses.

I am not going to be stuck in debt or being harassed by debt collectors, and so bankruptcy was the only option for me.

Before you judge others MeanGene, maybe you should watch a few documentaries on the Debt trap for consumers and see just how bad the system really is. The system is not willing to work with the consumer, they just want more, and even in some cases people commit suicide because they see no other way out of these debt collectors that harass, belittle, and hound them Mon-sun on the phones.

Here's a few films you should watch before placing judgment on others MeanGene.

In Debt We Trust

2006NR98 minutes

Filmmaker and former journalist Danny Schechter (WMD: Weapons of Mass Deception) investigates Americans' ongoing love affair with credit cards and the staggering level of personal debt it's created, paying special attention to the relationship between Congress and the credit card industry. In a modern society that's increasingly "financialized," consumer debt is so common that extending credit has become highly lucrative.

Frontline: The Card Game

2009UR54 minutes

PBS's award-winning investigative series "Frontline" examines how the banking and credit industries are reacting to new regulations guiding how Americans obtain the credit that so frequently turns out to be a curse rather than a blessing. How can credit card companies position themselves to continue making massive profits while encouraging fiscal responsibility and a stable U.S. economy? Politicians, lobbyists and consumer advocates respond.

I've got an idea on how to foil the debtors prison plot!

PAY YOUR BILLS!! That's right, if you pay your bills then you don't go to any prison. You don't even go to court! Bill collectors will not call you. The whole evil plot is ruined!

If you don't like banks and corporations then simply don't do business with them at all and then you will never have to pay them any money, nor will you be "subservient to them" as you put it.

The consumer is 100% in control. The banks can't just make you owe them money, you know.

The consumer is 100% in control.

Absolutely - because medical treatment is usually optional. After all, you have the choice to either get treated, or forego treatment and get sicker or die. Simple.

The corporation that wasn't paid by this individual for medical service wrote off the losses long ago and received a tax write-off.

It never ceases to amaze me that those on the right don't bat an eye at corporate bankruptcies and restructuring but when it comes to individuals it's all about the "moral obligation."

Absolutely - because medical treatment is usually optional. After all, you have the choice to either get treated, or forego treatment and get sicker or die. Simple.

Those aren't the only options. Your hyperbole ruins your case. Let's take an example...

I'm kayaking on Roosevelt Lake. I have a good time, but my sunscreen is inadequate, and I get sunburned. I can certainly go to a doctor to have my burn treated. I can go to the drugstore and buy some aloe vera ointment (which I did). Or I can do nothing and just suffer the natural course of the sunburn.

I went with the aloe vera ointment because I knew what the doctor would prescribe... ointment. So why would I pay a doctor to tell me to do something I already knew to do? Why, insured or not, would I waste those resources and that money?

I go into hospitals all the time as a radio communications engineer. You know those pagers and radios that doctors and security use? Guess who does that? Yep, me. So, I see this all the time, and I'm telling you that most of the people seeing doctors have NO BUSINESS seeing a doctor with their penny-ante sniffles.

Hospitals and doctors and emergency rooms are limited resources. They are not something to be abused for everyday aches and pains and cures for hangovers. The jerks who go there are tying up resources from people who might REALLY need them. Frankly, I think if you have the ability to walk into a doctor's office under your own power then you probably have no need of a doctor.

The corporation that wasn't paid by this individual for medical service wrote off the losses long ago and received a tax write-off.

Doctors aren't corporations. Doctors are people trying to pay off a six-year-college student loan with a bill close to $200,000 worth of schooling and when deadbeats stiff them, that makes their ability to pay off their debts all that much harder.

Malpractice insurance for an Obstetrician can easily hit $300,000 per year in insurance premiums, because if Mommy has a Baby with no thumbs then she's going to sue the crap out of the Doctor for the birth defect she probably caused by smoking Meth during pregnancy.

It never ceases to amaze me that those on the right don't bat an eye at corporate bankruptcies and restructuring but when it comes to individuals it's all about the "moral obligation."

That's not the argument I'm making at all. Declaring bankruptcy means taking responsibility for a debt, an affirmative defense saying "YES I OWE THIS MONEY". That's not what the deadbeat Robin Sanders did. It's what she SHOULD HAVE done if her story were true.

She hid from her debt. Slunk from it. Crawled away like a reptile. That's not the way to handle that problem, or any problem. You stand up and take responsibility, and if you do that then nobody can fault you for being in the wrong. What this deadbeat did placed her clearly in the wrong, and that's why she landed in jail.

Getting sick does not mean having to go to a doctor and racking up medical bills.

Most people who go to doctors had no business going to a doctor, they're overreacting to getting some sniffles or a headache and they should be headed to CVS or WALGREENS or OSCO or any of a number of other places which sell aspirins and decongestants.

Do you know how many times I went to the doctor this year? ZERO TIMES. Do you know how many times I went to the doctor last year? ZERO TIMES. Do you know how many times I expect to go to the doctor next year? ZERO TIMES.

It's not that I never get a sniffle or a sneeze. It's that when I do get sniffles, I treat it with Chicken Noodle Soup, the way they did 300 years ago before this candy-assed crap of going to the Doctor for every little hangnail and sunburn.

If I treat myself with Chicken Noodle Soup, then my cost is $1.50 a day. The entire week costs $11 for treatment. If I were a DUMBASS and went to the DOCTOR for treatment, my copay alone for the appointment would be $20 and the prescription would be another $5.

The poor are fools who drive right by pharmacies to get to a doctor for stupid crap they could take care of themselves if they had half a brain.

I guess you've never heard of cancer...My god we already jail more people than any other Westernized country; now we're going to jail the poor? Wow.

Do you know how many times I expect to go to the doctor next year? ZERO TIMES.

And what if you have an accident? What if you do get sick, really sick and need surgery or a transplant or any number of things...

why don't you get that people can't predict whether or not they will need health care.

And what if you have an accident? What if you do get sick, really sick and need surgery or a transplant or any number of things...

why don't you get that people can't predict whether or not they will need health care.

Here's the thing. I'm already 47 years old, my life expectancy as a white male in the USA is about 74 years and so I can expect to live about 27 more years. No matter what treatment I receive, no matter what drugs I take, I'm not going to last more than about three more decades.

So, at some point there's a cost to benefit ratio. I've visited people in several assisted living homes and many (I'd daresay most) of the residents over the age of 70 have "Do Not Resuscitate" (DNR) papers filed and wear a DNR medical bracelet because they know that quantity of life is not the same thing as quality of life.

Health care isn't always a good thing, or even a wanted thing. There is such a thing as "better off dead".

As for me personally, I have short term disability insurance (not social security, the real deal), long term disability insurance, health insurance, life insurance, mortgage insurance, car insurance, basically I'm covered because I'm responsible.

That's what the Supreme Court will be deciding about the mandate in Obamacare this summer. Can the Federal Government order people to be responsible and purchase insurance? If the Feds cannot order people to purchase insurance (they really can't) then does the Federal government have the right to make taxpayers cover the irresponsibilities of other citizens? I'd say not.

Poverty is not an acceptable excuse for irresponsibility. If the poor were responsible at all, then they'd never be poor. This is the USA. All you have to do to be filthy rich in the USA is to graduate school, stay away from drugs and have a work ethic better than a hippy.

That's nice, gene. You know what happened last time I had sniffles? I ended up unable to breathe. It's called "asthma" and sometimes you can't home treat it. Sometimes the inhaler isn't enough. Sometimes I need to use that big, expensive nebulizer that costs around $230. Not breathing isn't fun, especially if the day before you just thought you had the sniffles.

I have family in Germany who cannot fathom how we in the US agree that free public education is a fundamental human right, yet health care is a luxury to be purchased. They think we are a bunch of crazy people over here. Wait till they hear this. And this statement, by MeanGene

If the poor were responsible at all, then they'd never be poor. This is the USA. All you have to do to be filthy rich in the USA is to graduate school, stay away from drugs and have a work ethic better than a hippy.

has so many things wrong with it I'm not even sure where to start. I could write a book on all the problems with this statement...although at the moment I am speechless at the absolute cruelty of it...wow.

That's nice, gene. You know what happened last time I had sniffles? I ended up unable to breathe. It's called "asthma" and sometimes you can't home treat it. Sometimes the inhaler isn't enough. Sometimes I need to use that big, expensive nebulizer that costs around $230. Not breathing isn't fun, especially if the day before you just thought you had the sniffles.

Do you seriously need insurance for a piddly little $230? I mean seriously, a week's worth of wages (40 hours) at $7.25 per hour is $290, and you can't come up with $230 TO SAVE YOUR LIFE?

You need insurance to do that? That's not even half the deductible on my truck insurance. You can't even buy a video game system for what you're claiming to need insurance coverage for.

Insurance isn't for penny-ante crap. Insurance shouldn't even kick in unless the bill is $10,000 or more just for the simple matter of keeping the system from getting nickel-and-dimed to death the way it is.

The new tires I put on my truck this year cost me $600, and do you think making a claim on my comprehensive insurance even crossed my mind? Of course not. It's not EXPENSIVE ENOUGH. Even if it were, I'd expect the insurance company to say it's part of the cost of owning the truck to maintain a good set of tires on it.

Medical insurance should be the same way. Otherwise you could get crazy stupid and say that food is a medical necessity (you would die without it) and have the medical insurance buy your groceries. You could say that water is a medical necessity (you would die without it) and have the medical insurance cover your water bill too.

There has to be some point where the line is drawn. I think billing an insurance company for a lousy $230 is ridiculous. I'll spend more than that on a game of golf. I know, I've seen me do it. There is something wrong with hyperdefining insurance down to nickels and dimes.

That $230 doesn't count the doctors visit, the medication that is used inside the nebulizer, and the day off my husband had to take because there is no way I could have driven myself. We are lucky- we do have insurance. (Which is really nice because that asthma attack would have been on top of my gestational diabetes and gallstones, which were expensive enough *with* insurance!) But I do know people my age who would have had to choose between rent and medical care in that case. I don't know if you've noticed that, to people who are not employed or underemployed, $230 can be a LOT of money. For someone living paycheck to paycheck, $230 of an unexpected expense can be a LOT of money.

That $230 doesn't count the doctors visit, the medication that is used inside the nebulizer, and the day off my husband had to take because there is no way I could have driven myself. We are lucky- we do have insurance.

Taking a day off work doesn't cost anything. I've got over a thousand hours of sick time. I could take off work until next JULY and it wouldn't cost anything. Besides, even if it did, it's ridiculous that the husband is the only resource. There are friends, relatives, taxis, buses, it's not like it has to be that one particular resource alone.

We are lucky- we do have insurance.

No, if you were lucky then you'd have won millions of dollars in the lottery and you wouldn't have to worry about insurance. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LUCK. I don't consider my insurance luck, any more than I consider my income luck. I work for it.

I did not wake up one day turned into an electronics communications engineer. I didn't get my FCC license in any gift wrapped package. I did not learn land mobile communications, satcom and terrestrial microwave by osmosis. This was not luck, it was the furthest thing from luck. It's called WORK.

I don't know if you've noticed that, to people who are not employed or underemployed, $230 can be a LOT of money. For someone living paycheck to paycheck, $230 of an unexpected expense can be a LOT of money.

It's not enough money to be worth abusing an insurance policy over. The paperwork costs are triple that. There needs to be a ceiling below which insurance cannot be abused.

$230 is ridiculously low. That's not even a decent shopping trip to Costco.

Taking a day off work doesn't cost anything. I've got over a thousand hours of sick time. I could take off work until next JULY and it wouldn't cost anything

Good for you. You're assuming we do have piles and piles of sick time. You're assuming *everyone* has piles and piles of sick time.

I did not wake up one day turned into an electronics communications engineer. I didn't get my FCC license in any gift wrapped package. I did not learn land mobile communications, satcom and terrestrial microwave by osmosis. This was not luck, it was the furthest thing from luck. It's called WORK.

Good for you. Once again, you're assuming our situation is *exactly* like yours and *exactly* like everyone else. My husband is working his way through school right now and his job doesn't have the greatest of insurance benefits. There's no way for him "work harder" and get more insurance benefits from his job. They are what they are.

$230 is ridiculously low. That's not even a decent shopping trip to Costco.

That's nice. I guess absolutely every person in America can afford a $230 grocery shopping trip. I noticed you didn't address how the $230 is just for the nebulizer and not including the medications or doctors visit.

Good for you. You're assuming we do have piles and piles of sick time. You're assuming *everyone* has piles and piles of sick time.

I'm assuming nothing. I'm saying there are multiple options, which is very true. It's not like a ride from the spouse is the only way to get to the hospital. They have these things called cabs, maybe you've heard of them? In emergencies, they even have ambulances. Heck, I've ridden my bicycle to the hospital before to visit my Uncle. It was a nice day and the ride was only 2 miles. That's actually walking distance, but the bicycle is more fun.

Good for you. Once again, you're assuming our situation is *exactly* like yours and *exactly* like everyone else. My husband is working his way through school right now and his job doesn't have the greatest of insurance benefits. There's no way for him "work harder" and get more insurance benefits from his job. They are what they are.

Again, myopia concerning your options. Insurance can be bought regardless of employment. You pay the money and you get the insurance, same as your car insurance and house insurance... or are those provided through your husband's employer too?

I'm assuming nothing. I'm nothing special, I'm not some superman braniac with any better abilities or skills than the next guy. I just applied myself a little bit harder, I didn't do drugs and I got some of the best electronics training on the planet in the United States Navy for a springboard. Half the guys who start that training don't finish it because they do not apply themselves to learning.

That's nice. I guess absolutely every person in America can afford a $230 grocery shopping trip. I noticed you didn't address how the $230 is just for the nebulizer and not including the medications or doctors visit.

Anyone who has to come up with $230 can do it. They just don't wanna. Amazing how Ms. Robin Sanders couldn't cough up a payment for her debt, but she sure came up with $500 bail to get out of jail.

Most people who say they're broke to bill collectors are full of crap. They're sitting on a pile of money and just don't want to pay what they owe.

They have these things called cabs, maybe you've heard of them? In emergencies, they even have ambulances.

Both of those also cost money and, in the case of the ambulance, a LOT more money. Neither come with the fact that I didn't just need my husband to drive me, I needed him to physically be at home with me because I couldn't breathe properly.

Heck, I've ridden my bicycle to the hospital before to visit my Uncle. It was a nice day and the ride was only 2 miles. That's actually walking distance, but the bicycle is more fun.

LOL. Do that with an asthma attack. Heck, just walk with an asthma attack and a pregnant belly and see how far you get.

Insurance can be bought regardless of employment.

With what extra money? After we pay our house insurance, car insurance, and other expenses, what money is left to cover ridiculously expensive health insurance that we are effectively priced out of because of pre existing conditions?

Yeah, I'm done. You're just jumping ridiculous hoops to fit your worldview.

Heck, I've ridden my bicycle to the hospital before to visit my Uncle. It was a nice day and the ride was only 2 miles. That's actually walking distance, but the bicycle is more fun.

It is perfectly fitting that you would advocate riding a bike to the hospital to someone who is going to the hospital with a severe asthma attack. Mean, this shows just how out of touch you are with what people deal with.

My husband injured his leg and 30 days later was admitted to the hospital for 5 days with a pulmonary embolism. The bill was just over 20K. There was no way to predict this would happen or plan for it. We got lucky that ACA passed and my employer offered insurance to me...this happened just a few months before the PE so we were lucky that we were covered. Just one of the medications he was put on was 100.00 per dose.

gene, rly? wow you really are a example of what's wrong in this world. karma baby, have fun with that.

Both of those also cost money and, in the case of the ambulance, a LOT more money. Neither come with the fact that I didn't just need my husband to drive me, I needed him to physically be at home with me because I couldn't breathe properly.

That's ridiculous. Unless your husband is a respiratory therapist his presence is useless around an asthmatic and he could have gone to work. After all, you believe that ONLY MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS can possibly be of help in any medical situation.

Which is it? Do you believe laymen have some ability to perform basic medical caregiving or not? YES OR NO?

LOL. Do that with an asthma attack. Heck, just walk with an asthma attack and a pregnant belly and see how far you get.

Yeah, that's another pet peeve of mine, breeders making babies they know they can't afford. I got a vasectomy at the age of 20 because I knew I would never be able to afford having a child. I couldn't even do that now, I'd have to make double my current pay and even then at a $250,000 per year the cost of raising a child would be cost prohibitive. It's extremely irresponsible for anyone with a net worth of less than a million dollars to have a baby.

With what extra money? After we pay our house insurance, car insurance, and other expenses, what money is left to cover ridiculously expensive health insurance that we are effectively priced out of because of pre existing conditions?

That would be your problem, not mine. You seem to mistakenly believe that I'm responsible for your issues, either through my insight or through my extremely high taxes, both of which I fervently disagree with. You got yourself into this situation and the only person responsible for solving it is you.

I guess I'm supposed to feed your kid, even though I didn't make you pregnant either.

Unless your husband is a respiratory therapist his presence is useless around an asthmatic and he could have gone to work.

So if I passed out and no one was home with me, that'd be fine? If my breathing did actually stop, I could just walk to the phone and call 911 with no repercussions?

After all, you believe that ONLY MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS can possibly be of help in any medical situation.

What a ridiculous assumption of what I've been saying. What I've been saying is that sometimes, whether you like it or not, people need to see a doctor and cannot home remedy themselves.

Do you believe laymen have some ability to perform basic medical caregiving or not? YES OR NO?

In some situations yes, in others, no. It all depends on the medical problem at hand.

Yeah, that's another pet peeve of mine, breeders making babies they know they can't afford.

Who said we can't afford the baby? I said the $230 was expensive for us, but I did not say we didn't pay it nor could we not afford it. I've said you're making assumptions about people and that's it's a lot of money for people. I know of many people where that would be a prohibitive cost and *gasp* they don't have children!

I couldn't even do that now, I'd have to make double my current pay and even then at a $250,000 per year the cost of raising a child would be cost prohibitive

You really aren't good at budgeting then. $230 may be a lot of money for us, but we're doing well compared to other people.

You got yourself into this situation and the only person responsible for solving it is you.

That's right, darn it! That asthma! If only I had chosen a cheaper respiratory disorder from my parents genetic gene pool!

I guess I'm supposed to feed your kid, even though I didn't make you pregnant either.

There's those assumptions again. Hmm, what's that they say about assumptions? Makes an ass out of you....

So if I passed out and no one was home with me, that'd be fine? If my breathing did actually stop, I could just walk to the phone and call 911 with no repercussions?

It's called a portable phone. It's not exactly new technology. Funny how these so-called "poor" have freakin' $900 iPhones in their pockets on a $120 per month unlimited data plan.

What a ridiculous assumption of what I've been saying. What I've been saying is that sometimes, whether you like it or not, people need to see a doctor and cannot home remedy themselves.

If you can get to a doctor under your own power, then you don't need any stinkin' doctor.

Troll Alert!

Yeah I was suspicious about that notification process too. However if your bail money gets turned over to the collection agency then the collection agency has a very compelling motive to make sure you don't recieve the notification.

It's possible that this lady is lying about not getting the notice to appear. It's also possible that this collection agency has some shady sweetheart deal with the court. This needs more investigation.

That's not necessarily true about being issued the summons. Most States have a procedure for "Summons By Publication", meaning an advertisement taken out in a paper in circulation in the county or district of the summons for one week.

This is generally permitted when there has been a reasonable and prudent effort made to contact the party named in the summons.

This is why ducking and dodging creditors is generally ill-advised. It's not like a game of hide-and-seek where if you can just stay hidden for long enough you'll win. In fact, it can get worse, FAR worse than what happened to Ms. Robin Sanders.

You see, there's a little-known aspect of Tax Law which states that a debt written off is "income" to the debtor. The company writing the debt off reports this to the IRS on a Form 1099, listing the debtor as having received the sum of the debt as reported income. Of course, they will also send you an IRS Form 1099 informing you that you owe taxes on this "income".

Here's the danger zone: The average household credit card debt in the USA is right around $10,000 per household. Now, let's say that the household defaults on all of its credit card debt and gets a Form 1099 reported to the IRS that they made $10,000 extra that year.

Assuming that the average household income is $45,000 per year in the USA, they will be paying taxes at the 25% marginal rate bracket and UNDERREPORTING $10,000 worth of income.

That means in an audit, they've shorted the IRS by $2,500 in income taxes.

The IRS doesn't like people who short them by thousands of dollars. The IRS gets very angry with such people and does bad things to them. There are penalties, interest, asset forfeiture and yes, indeed, you can go to jail over that. The IRS can be very, very persuasive at getting blood from the proverbial turnip.

Finances are no joke. It's a responsibility to keep on top of them and not duck your obligations.

You are right. The side doing the serving is required to prove they served the opponent legally. You have someone's proof that service was not performed legally.

I so agree with you, upswing. I was beginning to wonder if I was crazy. Thank you for putting into words what I just couldn't. (I'm still in shock at the narcissism I was reading) Btw, where is the "ignore" button?

Hecate's Daughter:

You're welcome.

The ignore button can be accessed either by clicking on the exclamation point in the bottom right of the Viner's post -- any post by the Viner you want to ignore -- and clicking on the "ignore this author" button.

Or, you can click on the Viner's name at the top of the post, and it will take you to their column.

The "Ignore this author" option is right next to the space for the photo of the Viner/avatar in the mid-upper right of the page as you look at it.

Thank you again, upswing! I hit ignore...ah, much better:)

Depends on the state's rules. Many of those cases go forward without much in the way of verification.

Sansverks:

For me, the question of MeanGene being right or wrong is immaterial.

It's his misanthropic perspective on life that I find unpleasant.

As far as learning from him goes, well, I already understand that there are many differint sides to this and other issues, so acknowledging that really isn't an issue for me.

And, as far as the content of his posts go, they are so lacking any connection with any perspective and position in his life than his own that they are too narrow to be of any use to anyone not in a very similar situation to him, and who is not already predisposed to his malignant default assessment of people, which, so far as I can tell, is that people, generally, are losers and too inferior to him to warrant any basic human compassion.

So, you can see, from my perspective, at least, there really isn't any good reason for me to engage with MeanGene.

For you, apparently, there is.

That's fine.

And so it goes...

I must agree (again) with upswing. As a Wiccan, I use many home-based remedies. I don't try to set my own bones or pull my own teeth, however. I have never put anyone on "ignore" before; but the narcissistic arrogance was just too nauseating. There are many others on the vine with opposing views that I actually enjoy debating with.
As for dealing with people who, by their own words, prove they do not know the meaning of "empathy"...nah, I'll pass.

ma:

Sure it cost me money to pay the filing fee for my answer, but it was far less than what the plaintiff was asking for.

You had to pay to file an answer?

Yes. I did not qualify for a fee waiver.

ma:

Yes. I did not qualify for a fee waiver.

Huh.

I had no idea anyone had to pay to file an Answer to a Complaint.

Maybe it's a state-rule thing that's different from state to state...